cssvault - inspiring creativity

"Site requirement not met" ...This website stupidly won't open with Internet Explorer. Standards have to be promoted, but not by restricting accessibility to the vast majority of users.... IMHO of course.

sebastien billard (http://s.billard.free.fr)

1. does not allow explorer users (80% of the visitors) 2. does not validate 3. uses a gazillion divs 4. would be lighter with tables One could question if this is considered to be web standards, and what benefit the CSS design really does for a site like this... nice design though.

dennis

Can't view it with IE or firefox 'Site requirement not met' error both times. Looks nice from the thumbnail though :)

Tom

I can view it from Firefox just fine. Silly of them to exclude IE though. Guess they are trying to make a point, but in the end are only hurting themselves.

Scrivs (http://9rules.com/)

This kind of site is infuriating, no matter how good it looks as a thumbnail! A typical, over indulgent designer site - why not stick to print design if you're going to exclude the vast majority of web users?!

Nicola

Can't view it with IE or Firefox or Opera. So this is really excited CSS site ;-)

dgx (http://www.dgx.cz/trine)

The site works fine in Firefox (latest version). You aren't using an extension to change your user agent are you?

Luke Redpath

Opera 7.5 is modern browser not? Strange... Flash plug-in and Javascript required? Interesting usability and accessibility. I favour much complacent visitors for you ;-)

Pavel Kout (http://www.webface.cz/)

to #8, Luke: What´s the latest version of Firefox? 1.0PR I hope, but I see warning message only... really good job! ;-)

Vít Dlouhý (http://www.vitdlouhy.cz/)

hi, i have only one thing to say, quote: "

O sorry for that comment, i see html is stripped out (please delete it). Anyway, anyone can view source to get my point. 8 divs needed for only the header is a bit too much .... isn't it?

matthijs

As far as I can see the sites uses all these divs because they do not use the "text-tags" such as H1, H2 etc.

J

Off course I meant "this site", not "the sites"... and "it does not" instead of "they do" well... Next time I'll use the preview function...

J

(and off should be of)

J

I agree that semantically the code is poor, however - and I'm certainly not the last person to say this - this is a show case for what CSS can do, and not not the XHTML-vault or the validation-vault.

Luke Redpath

Poor coding. Poor coding. Shrug. The flash thing at the top is super cool. And I hate flash. Also, FireFox works for me.

A. Casalena (http://www.casalena.org/)

I use FeedDemon to view alot of my rss feeds, and one of them is the CSS VAULT. I was quote dissapointed to see the warning message I did because FeedDemon uses a version of IE. The point of standards is to not give these messages. The content of the site should at least be viewable in most browsers, even if the visual appearance won't be.

Bryan (http://www.juicedthoughts.com)

If this site is soooooo bad, then why is it listed here?

joe

Wow...went from thinking "how cool" to "what garbage". The visual design is grea.; I love the colors and images; something very different from the typical blog-ish design running around these days. But then there's the code and lack of support for common browsers. Talk about markup goulash...yikes! Looks like a table-driven designer trying to follow web standards without really getting it. div-itis, not a lick of semantic markup to be found, spans for paragraphs, yuck! I'm no wonder kid of web development, but even I can come up with markup better than this! And then, I could never come up with a visual design that looks this good either. :)

Michael Pierce (http://MpPierce66.home.comcast.net/web/fi/)

I'm not gonna talk about all the stuff like usuablity etc. What I would like to point at... is the way (or better to say) the style in which this site was designed. I think that CSSVault is one of the greatest / or at least the most important resource for many CSS designers and therefor sets the trend in designing. If you look through many sites in past days you'll note that many layouts use more and more graphics (often to the detriment of valid code) . ... I'm talking about all the textures, rounded corners etc etc. Do we have to expect another CSS design era, where the visual side of the website will be more and more important compared to what we were used to in last years? Just look at cssvault.com itself ... and then look at Delicious Monster. (using a "modern browser" of course :-D) Now what is the way we have to design modern websites nowadays? Thx. PS: My comment is more like a thought ... :)

Madeo

"I disagree. The website is a company that makes software for Macs. Realistically, how many people using IE for Windows are going to be visiting that site (and why would they need to)? I can see why they haven't spent the extra time catering to IE's problems." How about a Mac user who has to use Windows and IE at work? They have money too ya know.

Vinnie Garcia (http://blog.vinniegarcia.com/)

"The point of standards is to not give these messages. The content of the site should at least be viewable in most browsers, even if the visual appearance won't be." - Bryan Well said. It does however, take ages to load. Waiting.. Ah, there. Well, it looks okay. I'm not a huge fan of it. I'm still a little irked that Opera won't let me in however.

Jay Hills (http://ikonik.net)

That site isn't even built with standards compliance in mind, it just relies heavily on CSS for design... that's a big difference. Go to the site, turn of CSS. What do you see? Does it make sense, do you see a flow and organization to the document? I sure didn't. Even if the target audience is Mac users, I don't see that as any justification to exclude IE users just because they *shouldn't* be interested in their products... that's just a poor excuse to NOT learn how to work with stubborn browsers.

Justin Perkins (http://www.enjoybeingsoftware.com/)

I won't get into the issue with IE here--except to say that mac site or no mac site any page should load in the world's most common browser. That being said--the flash is wonderful. The use of the wood texture sets the animation apart--but I've always been a sucker for texture. It seems that people here tend to turn against a site the moment they see any flash, which is too bad. It can be used, and used well, in clean, valid sites that (most importantly) please clients. Anyway, despite this site's problems I think the overall look works well. The use of brown and yellow, along with the wood texture and stylized flowers sets the site apart from most any other software comapany--creating a unique brand. (The logo is a little close to the graphics in the movie "Monster's Inc" however)

Todd (http://www.toddsilverdesign.net)

I a gree with Todd, Also, I use Opera and could not load the site. And as a (common) user, I would not download a browser just to view one site. So that is already a huge turn off and probably a down point for them, as many (common) users will probably skip it. What happened to accessibility...:)

lou (http://www.dufranetech.com/web)

Hey everyone, this is Mike Matas (president of Delicious Monster). I am really happy people (who are in a support browser) are loving the site so much. We worked very hard on the design and rushed it out the door because we were getting a ton of e-mails asking about our software. We know the sites code is not perfect, we are not done yet. We just wanted to put something up people could see, and over %85 of people coming to our site are able to see it. That is much better than the 0% that would be able to see it if we waited. We will have the site working in all browser very soon. I would really encourage those of you who did not get in to try back in about a week the website and application are truly incredible.

Mike Matas (http://www.delicious-monster.om)

It's just beautiful even if the code look like Dreamweaver tables converted to layers. I wish I had the flash, imagination and design skills to do stuff like this. If they clean up their code, css I go buy myself a Mac so I have a reason to visit their site :o)

Kim (http://www.mouseriders.dk)

Yes this is a pretty site but all you could see on 800x600 is the flash banner......not good. It is not good practise to restrict a site to a browser. Not accessible. Also there are no alt tags on the library screenshots..

Leonard (http://movies.aurum3.com)

They're not just restricting browsers, folks. I can't access it because I don't have Flash installed I suppose there aren't too many people in that boat, but this is the first site which has ever deliberately excluded me based on my preference for ignoring Flash. And that seriously irritates me I'd love to check out the design, because the site is giving me a seriously beautiful "You suck!" message, but I can't Note to all the Flash monkeys out there: I don't have a problem with Flash, I think it can do amazing things. Unfortunately at this stage, most sites simply use it to do annoying things. Until that changes (which it seems to be, slowly), I won't be installing Flash

Lachlan Hardy (http://www.vna.com.au)

Looks awesome from here folks. Windows XP Firefox. checked it on IE ... bummer ... it's not like it's gonna be hell setting it up right. Well Done!

jbudd

it's like they're discriminating the other users. it would've been a good site. only most people won't get to see it. tsk. tsk.

ff

This is funny...The error messages looked crap using IE... it looks soooo much better in FF :o)

kim (http://www.mouseriders.dk)

I have Firefox 1.0 PR (latest version) I couldn't see the header till I upgraded Flash to version 7 (latest). Innovative design, nice to see something different. It's kinda 70's looking though, which is not my thing (l grew up in the 70's). But that seems to be a very popular theme lately. Long time to download. In addition to being exclusively MAC, isn't this site exclusively broadband also? Sharing all that multimedia stuff would only be practical that way. Also, it looks to me like this site is intended to be a type of Napster for all kinds of digital media. Call me legalistic, but isn't there going to be a problem with copyright? Or is all that obsolete now...

Tim (http://www. ambaka.com/)

Well, I think it is just lovely. Is everyone out there a software engineer or sumfink? And I think their ropey code is delightfully bad, top marks all round! You have left a lot of opinions divided which has to be good given how many pastel/verdana/blogalikes bore the nob off me nowadys

joel

Hey, this is Wil Shipley, from Delicious Monster. We've gotten a ton of response from this site. Nobody here wanted to exclude anyone from our site, we just wrote it to look good and get it working for most of our target audience with a limited timeframe. I've got a proposal for the users of this site: if you rewrite our site to work with IE (while still working in the current browsers we support) and submit your changes to us (or post them here), I'll pay you US$100, cash money, mailed or paypalled the day we get the code. (This offer is subject to my approving your code and will only be extended to the first person who submits code that works for us, blah blah blah.) As a side incentive, the first person to write the code in a "clean" way I'll give US$50, although this is obviously very subjective (and in both cases I reserve the right to decide I don't want to use anyone's code). Write it for IE and clean it up, and get $150! Not bad for a two-page site! So, here's your chance to put my money where your mouth is, and show off for your peers. We know the site's pretty for users, and you guys can help us make it gorgeous to the core. -Wil Shipley Delicious Monster Software, LLC

Wil Shipley (http://www.delicious-monster.com/)

G'day Wil I'm not sure you'll get too many offers for that, at least not for the latter. Making your site's code clean and semantic would be fairly time-intensive It probably isn't worth $50 USD (even to an Aussie like me)

Lachlan Hardy (http://www.vna.com.au)

Hi Wil, I think the site is absolutely gorgeous. I love the fresh, happy and playful design style and the attention to detail. As an end user I do not care how many divs you use. The difference in loading time will be almost unnoticeable on a broadband connection. Being unavailable to the majority of web users though is a major problem. I have a Mac and a Pc and use five different browsers between the two of them and only one combination worked! You really have to fix this and you should do it yourselves. Your 100/50 Dollar offer is ridiculous and I think you know it. ;-) Kind Regards, Robert Stulle PS Your product (Delicious Library) looks fantastic!

Robert

begin rant--Look, IE is a sad fact of life, and let's face it: many users don't even understand that there are alternatives. However, compliant CSS is a document format, and you can't read a file if you don't have the right software. IE is not the right software. For many file formats you don't even have the option of downloading a free, high-quality reader, but internet users are fortunate enough to have multiple options. They just won't bother to download one unless forced to do so. Until there is a critical mass of non-IE users, MS will continue to inflict millions (billions?) of dollars of unnecessary costs on to developers. On a commercial site, IE support is a business decision, not an unalienable right. This very cool site finally got me to install FireFox on one of my PCs that had been limping along with IE. And that's a good thing.--end rant Also, I'm extremely excited about the product. I've been keeping a Dell laptop around exclusively to run the Collectorz movie cataloging software. B-bye, expensive paperweight!

Jay Robinson

> Your 100/50 Dollar offer is ridiculous and I think you know it. No, I don't. I'm betting there are some web designers out there who are out of work and would find it worthwhile. It's only two pages. Sure, if you're making $80 an hour right now, it's ridiculous. But if you can rewrite the CSS in a couple hours, are you really going to turn down the money? If you're a game programmer just starting out, the way you get hired is you find a hot game and you write an add-on for it in your spare time. The pros see your work, know you're the stuff, and they hire you. Our site has had 23,000 unique visitors in its first six days and we haven't even announced it anywhere yet. If I were starting out in the web business, I'd tinker with it for free. And, yes, I've done it myself -- I spent the first four years of my career writing free software for the NeXT community. -Wil PS: I'm glad so many people are excited about our product. It's certainly where we've focused most of our attention. We're very proud of the web site, but at the end of the day we're trying to get people to try Delicious Library.

Wil Shipley (http://www.delicious-monster.com/)

The political statement this guy makes is really lame. "Site not compliant" only shows his lack of business sense that IE is the #1 browser. I mean, who would hire someone that can't make a site IE compatable? Even a lamer with Dreamweaver can do that through tables! Is he so new to the internet or is just pigheaded? I think a bit of both. Nobody with money to spend on web development would hire someone that can't make a site that people can view. The entire idea of a webpage was to show people your product / idea / pictures of your dog, and this guy can't even do that! Duh.

Jeff

Hey Jeff, both of the owners of the company in question have stated in the above posts why the site doesn't work on some browsers, so your speculation may be a bit unnecessary.

Wil Shipley (http://www.delicious-monster.com/)

The site actually works great in the browser I'm using (Konqueror/Linux), but I get the stupid "Browser no f***ing good" message" until I switch off my browser's identification - after which it loads... Flash and all! So, personally I think the entire approach of using the User Agent string is demonstrably lame, since the browser is more than up to the job of rendering the page. In fact, this approach so much pisses me off, I feel like sucking off a copy of the site, sticking it on my own server and forcing it to show me what it looks like in Internet Explorer!

Daniel Walker

I'm just wondering why people don't read the previous posts here, before posting comments of they're own that had been answered all ready?

fred

I'm not quite sure why so many people are complaining about no IE support. Yes it is the current dominant (PC) browser, but why would they cater to it when the company creates OS X software and their customer base is comprised of non IE using Mac users? Did I miss something here? Yes, I realize some Mac users still use IE, but they are certainly the minority on the platform. Safari, OmniWeb, Firefox, etc. easily out number IE on the Mac platform. The company sells no PC products on their website. They are probably happy to leave a non-standards compliant mess of a browser behind. It seems they are trying to promote the use of superior tools for browsing the web... And you chastise them for this? Wake up.

Cthulhu

The point of this site is good CSS design yes? Why would any site that excludes the overwhelming majority of browsers (whether they visit or not) be even considered a site to look at for CSS? Designing for IE/Firefox is pretty damn easy with CSS (especially with Delicious Monster's fairly simple layout) so ignoring these browsers just seems lazy. I don't fault Delicious Monster for going the easy route (I do it all the time) and excluding browsers, but why would that site be featured here? With that said... the site works great for me in IE/Firefox now and their product looks really nice. There is no catalog application for Windows that is comparable. The Flash header is really well done although I find it a bit frustrating to have to scroll vertically to see what the hell the site is even about.

sedgemonkey (http://www.pixeljoint.com)

I, too, wonder why there are so many complaints about IE. They only offer products for Macs. I use Firefox and Safari on my iBook. I have a PC, too, and use Firefox on it, actually. But, anyway, on a site catering to Mac users, very few of whom are going to use IE as their primary browser, what's the big deal? As for the site itself, I love it and use their stuff.

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